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ReplyDeleteYeah, I mean it's a good point, but not a flawless one...There definitely are many dudes who need to look at that contradiction within themselves, but I think there's more involved when people say "that would fuck me in the ass" than purely that contradiction that the article brings up.
ReplyDeleteI think the expression of "getting fucked in the ass" refers more to the idea of a prison rape (something that obviously IS always painful/humiliating) or some similar experience than just plain anal sex.
Consider this...people say all the time "if such and such goes wrong, we'll be fucked," or "if you do that, that would fuck me," but that doesn't mean that there's necessarily a connotation that "fucking" is a painful and humiliating act. It's just an expression that uses a forceful verb to express an intense idea of being screwed over. It's not like anyone looks at those statements above and says, "People who say 'that would fuck me' automatically suggest the idea that sex itself is painful.'" I don't think anyone would think to argue that.
I think I know as many girls who say "fucked in the ass" that way as guys...and these are girls who have had anal sex and girls who haven't. I'm rambling...peace.
I'm not impressed by the argument where if a girl does it as well, its automatically not sexist or representative of sexism and misogyny. Women live in the same culture as men, internalize the same social messages, and therefore gain the same social capital by participating in male-oriented speech/talk. You're right in that this this article doesn't address the fact that this language is used by both genders, but it is successful in making connections with bro culture and homophobia as well as the prevailing views of good sex as being dominant sex.
ReplyDeleteThe expression, "we're fucked" used when something goes wrong, does actually imply that the passive position in sex is a degrading one. That position is overwhelmingly attributed to the feminine role in heterosexual and gay male sexual encounters. There is in fact a history of "trade relationships" in LGBT history where straight identified men engaged in sex with gay men and retained their "masculine "status because they performed the "insertive" role ie the dominant role. The expression "getting fucked" only denotes the passive role, the "humiliating" position. And it is a overly aggressive term. It implies that there is an unequal distribution of power, that someone is doing the fucking and someone is getting fucked. Obviously, we all have used this expression, but I still think it's worthwhile to think about the implication of what it means, who it's referring to , and who it's marginalizing. ---alix, a guest opinion
You both sound smart. Yay. I like your comments and they make me think… and they look pretty too. And Alix, you aren’t a guest. By the way, will I get to see you this weekend?
ReplyDeleteBut the post...
No questions asked. The fucker fucks the fuckee. Pretty simple. But, does that refer to dominance and/or hierarchy? I am not sure that it naturally does. I’ve been in bed with a number of women and although I have thus far always been the one doing the fucking/inserting, sometimes I feel like I am the one doing the fucking and other times and with other women I feel like I am the one being fucked...sometimes I even ask the girl to fuck me. So, I am not sure that the term "being fucked" is naturally one of dominance.
However, I do recognize that in our society at large, which I would suggest is possibly not a natural one (this could be a different post), males do dominate, and males do insert. Is there a correlation? I am not sure if this is what Alix is saying. If there is a scientific correlation I would be surprised, but I am no scientist. But I could definitely see a social correlation. While I hear Josh’s point that the term may have naturally and originally come from a prison complex, that is surely not what it has evolved into.
Female/male relations have, in most of the settled world, been fairly unequal ones. Remember, women were not allowed to vote because they would have just voted as their husbands did. God forbid we did a role-reversal on that one.
I can’t imagine getting fucked in the ass, and yet, it does turn me on if a girl would do it with me…but then again, I can’t imagine a penis inserting me…well maybe once. But the point is, males and females are different. No doubt about it. The problem arises when we put…
…oops, lost my train of thought. Sorry. I don’t know if I addressed anything at all, but I felt like I had to say something. Power to the people. jMA
I love you man.
ReplyDeleteHa...I agree, Alix, you are definitely not a guest. Also there is no way I am going to attempt to take you on in any kind of debate involving gender or sexuality studies. I have not taken enough FGSS classes here to feel in any way comfortable doing that, knowing the scope of your knowledge.
ReplyDeleteWhat I WILL say is that I was NOT in any way trying to make the argument that if a woman says it as well, it is automatically not misogynistic for men to. I in no way believe that idea or support it. I was trying to make the point that there is more to this issue that the straightforward equation: term + connotation = mass marginalization. I do believe that our society promotes unequal gender relations in many ways, but I'm not convinced at this point that the term "getting fucked" automatically connotates, as you said "the 'humiliating' position." While I do believe that the term HAS definitely been in ways that give it that connatation, and that this contradiction in bro culture definitely exists, I just disagree with how absolute the statement sounds the way it is put forth in the article.
Jesse, I agree with a lot of what you said actually. I'm with your actual point of view and the sentiment behind it. I need to take some more FGSS classes...I love this kind of debate.